The Pope should come to Wales
The confirmation of a Papal visit to Britain later this year has already sparked controversy, less than 24 hours after the Pope officially announced it to the 35 Catholic bishops of England and Wales in Rome.
He certainly has been forthright in his comments, which some have seen as an unprecedented attack on the UK Government’s Equalities Bill. However, it should also be said that he did preface those comments by stating the UK’s firm commitment to the equality of opportunity for all members of society is well know across the world.
Whilst I do not completely agree with what he went on to say regarding the ‘violation of natural law’, I do have some empathy with the thrust of Pope Benedict’s argument.
What he is saying that pursuing the objective of giving people absolute equality to all has unintended consequences of unjustly limiting peoples’ religious beliefs.
I thought the Archbishop of Cardiff’s conveyed the Pope’s view even more cogently in today’s Telegraph. He said:
“The Church of course upholds absolutely the equal dignity of every person, irrespective of their faith, age and ability. But I think there is a misunderstanding because sometimes in government legislation, government equality seems to be that we are all absolutely equal, which we are not. We are equal in dignity but beyond that, each one of us is unique.”
Therefore, we should strive for individual dignity and individual responsibility but not individual or absolute equality because doing that we will always encroach on someone’s personal beliefs.
Whilst not a Catholic I am a Christian and currently a governor at a Church-in-Wales Secondary School in Cardiff. In my view faith schools for example should have the option to employ someone of that faith to lead the direction and ethos of the school with personal conviction. Otherwise the whole basis on which that school exists is undermined.
Whether you agree or disagree with the Pope’s comments, I think we should look forward to his visit. I have today called upon the Assembly Government to tell the Welsh public what discussions and actions it has taken to bring the Pope to Wales in September.
I am sure many Christians in Wales remember Pope John Paul’s very prestigious and successful visit to Cardiff in the very hot summer of 1982. This visit will only be the second visit of a reigning pontiff to Britain in over 470 years and as we have seen, they only come along once in a generation. So for Wales to miss out on this significant and high profile visit would not just be a huge disappointment to the Catholic and wider Christian community, it would be a huge disappointment to the whole of Wales
February 2nd, 2010 at 5:19 pm
I wouldn’t be disappointed if he didn’t come and I know lots of other people who wouldn’t be disappointed if he didn’t come to Wales. The Catholic Church is incredibly discriminatory when it comes to women while hiding and shielding gay and abusive priests -where is the equality in that. They ban priests from marrying, the reason for that you can trace back to the 14Century when they were in dire straights financially and the then Pope decided the best way out was to get rid of the wives and children and save the extra money. Families were put out onto the streets.
I find it rather sad that this man speaks pout against efforts to create the equal society that Jesus Chris preached long and hard about
February 2nd, 2010 at 5:38 pm
I’m with ValleysMam on this, the pope should not be welcome in Wales.
The line he is trying to spin – that he passionately believes in equality while being outspoken in his opposition to any practical attempts to try to make people legally more equal – is so transparently hypocritical that it insults the intelligence of anyone who hears it.
The catholic church, along with most other religious movements promotes bigotry and the oppression of minotities. That is why they are so opposed to equality legislation.
I’m glad to see that the NSS is planning protests to co-incide with the pope’s visit – the only consolation were the WAG to bend over and invite him to Wales would be that it would be easier for me to join the protests.
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:01 pm
Yes, VM gets my vote as well. Equality is not divisible – either two people are equal, or they are not; this cannot be quantified or qualified.
What you seem to be saying, JM, is that provided an organisation calls itself a religion, it can do what it wants and say what it wants, since to deny them their views is not on. To paraphrase St Augustine, “make me believe in equality, Lord, but not just yet…” No, no, no.
“What he is saying that pursuing the objective of giving people absolute equality to all has unintended consequences of unjustly limiting peoples’ religious beliefs.”
What we are saying is that if their objectives call for discrimination against minorities, that is hateful. If I started a church that said “no women, no blacks, no disabled people, since my god says that you are all aberrations” – I would quite rightly be closed down pronto. Why is it right that the Pope can say this about other groups and get away with it?
Hypocritical is the word that Job D used, and I can think of no better one. This is the religion that has protected paedophile priests, while forbidding entry to gay men. The religion that allows celibates to lecture other, more conventional men, on the state of their marriages. I’ll be out there with a banner as well, Jon D – sign me up. I have never forgiven these bigots for their treatment of Galileo….
February 3rd, 2010 at 4:07 pm
I think Jonathan is absolutely right about welcoming the Pope to Wales and as a Catholic, I really do hope the Assembly Government does everything it can to persuade the UK Government and the Holy See that he would be welcome here.
I am a practising Catholic but I certainly wouldn’t portray myself as a stringent follower of Catholic doctrine. I believe that the Church does need to modernise in some areas and cannot hide away for the significant errors and atrocities it has committed in the past. However, what Jonathan is saying is right and it’s not just the specific domain of religion or religious institutions. Trying to achieve absolutely equality is an impossible task because someone, in a given context will feel aggrieved, that their rights have violated. How do go about measuring the importance level of rights?
I believe David Blackburn of the Spectator is absolutely right when he says that the Equalities Bill is fundamental un-British as “it ignores that toleration and freedom in Britain were derived from the right to religious observance free from state proscriptions.”
If the Equalities Bill is enacted it will require organisations to employ without thought to suitability, and allocate resources under the perverse dictates of positive-discrimination. The key objective of this Bill should be centred on conscience and not compulsion because you cannot switch on or switch off someone’s mindset or behaviour. That doesn’t mean condoning bigotry or hatred as everyone should be treated with dignity and respect.
The reality is that it is a deeply ideological and poorly designed piece of legislation, cobbled together at the fag end of the Labour government, to further its attempt to mould the sort of nation that Harman and Brown would like to see – one that is politically correct and completely secular.
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:24 pm
“If the Equalities Bill is enacted it will require organisations to employ without thought to suitability, and allocate resources under the perverse dictates of positive-discrimination. ”
No, not correct, sorry. Quite the opposite. The thrust of the legislation means that it will not be legal for organisations to apply pre-screening based on some arbitrary assessment of the candidate. For example, right now, it would be quite legal for the Catholic church to refuse to interview someone they believed to be a lesbian, even if that candidate was exceptional, in terms of their pastoral care work, and their management of their flock. What the proposed law will say is that the church will be required to judge applicants solely on their pastoral care work, and their management of their flock. What is wrong with that?
Let me give you an extreme – and fictitious – example. I hate English people (I hasten to add that I don’t). I set up a company and as my corporate mission statement, I say that “English is Evil”. I then go recruiting, and apply these rules to my recruitment policy. It doesn’t matter if the candidate for finance director is the best candidate possible – she is from London!! Therefore, I say no, she cannot get the job. I’m happy to tell her that at the interview – indeed, it is widely known that as far as my company is concerned, English people need not apply.
Do you think that I would escape censure from the authorities? Do you think the Pope and his medieval religion should?
Let the Pope come to Wales. As with Jon D, it will save me a train fare to go and heckle the old bigot.
February 5th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
A lot of rot written by people who are by and large ignorant of both the Catholic Church and even the British constitution. First of all the Catholic Church does not encourage discrimination against either gays or women. The issue of the ordination of women and practicing gays is theological not a human right. There was discrimination against gays in the UK until recently. The so called Equality Bill would be unconstitutional in the US because it infringes on the freedom of religion. On the other hand Catholics were both persecuted and (still) discriminated against in the UK. I dont see the national secular society (a joke if ever I have seen one) standing up for them. The pope should be welcome to Wales, and should come to Wales. Mam I hope that comment on shielding gays and paedophiles was not a freudian slip and an implication that gays are paedophiles. Let him and let the National Sardine Society protest him, all 10 of them! Deus Vult!
February 8th, 2010 at 8:58 pm
OK….
“First of all the Catholic Church does not encourage discrimination against either gays or women.”
Really? How many priests do you know who are of the female persuasion??
“The issue of the ordination of women and practicing gays is theological not a human right.”
Ah that’s ok then. “Dear Sarah, you can NOT be a priest because you are a woman – but don’t take it personally, it’s a theological problem not one for human rights – don’t worry your pretty little head about it”…
Bring on Father Jack Hackett to say “that would be an ecumenical problem”…
“There was discrimination against gays in the UK until recently.”
Oh that’s ok then. So long as someone else is discriminating against a particular group then that is carte blanche….
“Mam I hope that comment on shielding gays and paedophiles was not a freudian slip and an implication that gays are paedophiles.”
I certainly didn’t read VM’s comments that way… are you boxing at shadows here??
“Let him and let the National Sardine Society protest him, all 10 of them! Deus Vult”
You believe that there are ten of then if that gives you comfort – carry on looking out at the empty pews…. disputandi pruritus ecclesiarum scabies.
February 13th, 2010 at 1:08 am
I’ll agree with Valleys mam. All u need is a bible and a quiet spot.